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Good Riddance DE and I welcome WHS2011


edamiga1
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I would also have to add this. WHS without DE is not very different from Windows 7.

 

Other than the unique backup of only different files everything this new product has can be easily achived and with storage as cheap as you point out, you could actually do full mirror backups if you chose to or use one of many (free or paid) backup / sync packages to achive this. As far as the rest ie: Media Streaming, there are a ton of apps that do this and RDP in the end is not different than if you launch it directly yourself. How much would you like the WHS product if MS locked things down where only the features provided in the console were all that you could have? In reality this is what they should do and let only add-on devlopers fill the gaps in, thats why it has a console. I would of course agree with an updated underlying infrastructure which is x64 compatible, but will never agree that features that were core should be dropped, DE should have been improved, not dropped.

 

As far as average size of required storage, perhaps many will be fine with 3 or 4 TB, I know my parents (60 and 66) just had 2 grandkids within the last year, they promptly purchased 3 HD Video recorders 1 for them and 1 for each my brother and sister, all are either approaching 4TB or exceeded it already, I had set all of them up with WHS v1 in Antec 900 Cases with 5 Bay Sata Backplanes, they have had no problems at all and everyone of them has added space since I set them up, my brother had a drive die (as have I) and had no problems losing data at all. I would not in a million years suggest they build a raid box or buy a drobo, the drobo alone cost more than the entire setups I built for them.

 

So although I can see your point and your needs I would still argue that your needs exceed the Organize, Grow, Protect and Share mandate and the things you wish to do would probably be better acomplished on products that were designed and intended to do just that. Further nothing you are talking about doing cannot be done by simply not adding drives to the pool which could be done in V1 raid or no raid, so everything you speak of performance wise was already there, you just chose not to do it.

 

I know personally (I have 3 teenagers at home) and we have a total of 3 xboxes, 2 PS3's and 4 Media Center PC's (1 Kitchen , 1 Living room, 1 den, 1 bedroom) and all 3 teens have Win7 Desktops or laptops and we can be streaming 3 or 4 HD videos off my V1 Home server without any hiccups at all, so your issue's may not be DE at all.

 

My WHS is nothing super special either, it is a low powered AMD quad core with 3GB DDR2, in a Norco 4220 with 11 "green" 1.5TB drives in it, we do however run a gigabit network using a quality 24 port switch, no hiccups at all.

Edited by talex
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Hi talex,

 

Thanks for taking the time to write a few long comments. You are passionate about your WHS v1 and make a bunch of good points. B)

 

I do get long winded sometimes... :unsure:

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I do get long winded sometimes... :unsure:

 

I do too that's why I podcast ;)

 

All point valid I suppose but to be fair. I run full server08R2 with VMs of WHSv1 & v2 along with SBSLite & WMC. all on decent equipment. My post was my opinion on the subject. I'm merely stating why I disagree with you're assessment of the op and how I can relate with the OP.

 

Fact remains I don't see a need for drive pooling in the current climate. a simple mirror, spanned volume or true RAID can easily achieve this. I'm not sure how much you've dug into either WHS, but they are neutered enterprise platforms under a different SKU.

 

You missed my point but looking too much into what I posted. My point wasn't using enterprise level software for the home. It was enterprise level stability for the home user.

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Judging from the blog post about extending RAID5 array, I sure can see the need for drive pooling. I'm not sure very many of my friends would manage expanding the array, especially seeing how you need to use tools which are not exposed through the dashboard (the preferred method of maintaining your server). My opinion may or may not change, if MS or an OEM comes up with a method of making RAID expansion as simple (or even close to) as it is with DE now.

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I do too that's why I podcast ;)

 

All point valid I suppose but to be fair. I run full server08R2 with VMs of WHSv1 & v2 along with SBSLite & WMC. all on decent equipment. My post was my opinion on the subject. I'm merely stating why I disagree with you're assessment of the op and how I can relate with the OP.

 

Fact remains I don't see a need for drive pooling in the current climate. a simple mirror, spanned volume or true RAID can easily achieve this. I'm not sure how much you've dug into either WHS, but they are neutered enterprise platforms under a different SKU.

 

You missed my point but looking too much into what I posted. My point wasn't using enterprise level software for the home. It was enterprise level stability for the home user.

 

 

I cannot argue with the stability, we should even as home users have every right to expect a stable product. My main point is simple, you can run raid or whatever anyone wants and just not add it to the pool, there are a few people out there who are posting things anti-de when they could have done these things all along just by not adding the drives to the pool. I had Beyond TV running with a couple tuners in my home server saving recordings to a raid 5 array not in the pool for a year... no problems, even on my current WHS which no longer has raid, I have 2 drives I share but are not in the pool and effected by anything DE related. Shares still work the same way and in my estimation anyone who can run raid outta be able to figure out how to setup a share outside of the console. That is my biggest complaint there. I certainly see the value in some circumstances to not use de, but I cannot see any where you could not do it anyways and I honestly cannot believe anyone would not want DE fixed rather than removed. MS was moving this in the right direction, getting DE off the OS drive was a HUGE thing, real time duplication was great, losing the ability to read the drives outside of WHS was not a big thing for me (you cannot do this in most cases with raid and other than unraid I am not aware of any solutions that can do this anyways) and losing a raid controller is usualy a pretty catosrophoc situation, it would seem loosing a MB in WHS v2 as it was with DE there might have been options similar to losing a raid controller (ie: replace with mobo with same chipset worked in my vail beta test pre de removal).

 

Further in v1 you can even suspend / schedule demigrator.exe...

 

So we might actually be in agreement other than some seem happy to see DE go like the OP when he could simply do what he wants just by not adding to the pool and I also have a hard time believing anyone would be actually happy to see a major feature get stripped out of a product when they never had to use it in the 1st place.

Edited by talex
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...MS should have went with several sku's,

a true home sku with DE,

a premium sku without de for home users who prefer raid (although this could have been done all along)

and an enterprise sku for people in your situation who do not want to pay big bucks but want to run enterprise apps...

 

+1 to multiple SKUs. This would allow the most compromise. Small Business users can use the other skus to put in their business. Home users can use the ease of use of DE for their homes, and techies can use the mid one for their RAIDing.

 

I believe the WHS team was merged with SBS team to ensure compatability and for other business reasons. It turns out that DE didn't work in the business, which was more of a market, so it was dropped. Why not have it as an option? If you want DE, then you understand the limitations (no drive letters, no large database read-writes speed, etc) and you can have it. This pleases the SBS folks and the Home folks, while keeping the main code base the same (other than the storage technology).

 

Add-ins could be made to look at what Storage Tech is being used, and to warn if incompatibilities exist (for example, if an add-in needs fast read-write, like for an sql server, a message would pop up during the install warning about the problem with using DE)

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Reading this thread almost sounds like everyone is biterly agreeing. I think we all agree that DE was a great technolgy and depending on your needs still is. The issue is more in how we are beginning to demand more from our servers and now want to do multiple streams of HD and that is where is starts to fail. Not that it will not do it but rather it does not do it very well. For general purpose and for data protection, WHS V1 will live for a long time and those who only have those needs will keep using it as it is the best solution out there for that purpose. Those who have more than two HTPC's, some media streamers, or want to run server based apps, will migrate to WHS-2011 and welcome the speed and control. Neither of these products are bad, they are just different. RAID is not a new technology but it is new to home users and to a large extent is a bit intimadating. I encourage all who are turned off or afraid of moving to a different technology, to give it time. Once things settle down and work themselves out we will all be as comfortable with RAID it as we are now with DE. The trick here is deployment and making it easy. The technology is more robust, faster, and to a large extent easier than DE but the tools and products are very archaic and too intimidating. Once this gets sorted out and we can buy easy to use products we all wonder how we lived without it. It is presentation that makes a big difference here. If we look at Drobo for example, they are using a form of RAID but have made it easy. WHat is to prevent us from having a WHS server with a nice storage controller sofware that allows the same ease of use as Drobo but with even more power and storage options. We all loved DE which is why we bought WHS, but now we are moving forward just as we did moving from XP to Win7. Soon with the right hardware it will become as easy as DE. Just my two cents...

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Microsoft killed instead of fixing it because WHS is a niche product and at some point you have to justify the investment. That justification was integrating it into WHS, SBS, & WSS. The latter 2 have much better sales. This wasn't a cultural decision it was economic. Would you be willing to pay for Microsoft's R&D costs to bring it to market? Would you pay $400 for the software with DE. To the comment about your friends being able to manage an expanding array. These are the same people who, for the most part, didn't buy this product in the first place. Why do we need to include these people? They aren't the target market, I'm pretty sure there isn't even a market for those people to begin with. Anti-DE? maybe. I don't really care either way. IMO the DE feature is a feature not the defining role of the product. Maybe it was for you, and that's fine. Please realize we all don't need to be rah rah for the cause. I've seen a lot of software come and go, some of it good a lot of it bad. While DE is a good idea it doesn't mean its financially viable. Object oriented file system is a good idea but it was dropped for the same reason no viable market.

 

 

 

 

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Reading this thread almost sounds like everyone is biterly agreeing. I think we all agree that DE was a great technolgy and depending on your needs still is. The issue is more in how we are beginning to demand more from our servers and now want to do multiple streams of HD and that is where is starts to fail. Not that it will not do it but rather it does not do it very well. For general purpose and for data protection, WHS V1 will live for a long time and those who only have those needs will keep using it as it is the best solution out there for that purpose. Those who have more than two HTPC's, some media streamers, or want to run server based apps, will migrate to WHS-2011 and welcome the speed and control. Neither of these products are bad, they are just different. RAID is not a new technology but it is new to home users and to a large extent is a bit intimadating. I encourage all who are turned off or afraid of moving to a different technology, to give it time. Once things settle down and work themselves out we will all be as comfortable with RAID it as we are now with DE. The trick here is deployment and making it easy. The technology is more robust, faster, and to a large extent easier than DE but the tools and products are very archaic and too intimidating. Once this gets sorted out and we can buy easy to use products we all wonder how we lived without it. It is presentation that makes a big difference here. If we look at Drobo for example, they are using a form of RAID but have made it easy. WHat is to prevent us from having a WHS server with a nice storage controller sofware that allows the same ease of use as Drobo but with even more power and storage options. We all loved DE which is why we bought WHS, but now we are moving forward just as we did moving from XP to Win7. Soon with the right hardware it will become as easy as DE. Just my two cents...

 

 

I think you hit it on the head for the most part, only problem is at least in my case I won't be supporting or moving to V2, unfortunately I know raid and it is not so much a problem with using it as it is with it's limitations and supporting it to other users for me. Drobos are slowly working their way into corporate infrastructures because of the same reasons home users like DE, any drive can be dropped in. At work we just had a big dicussion on this very fact as there is a significant cost savings not having to stock pile SCSI drives (which is what many of our older servers have in them (think IBM netfinities of whatever flavor you choose), however the thought of mixing and matching drives at least on our less performance critical systems is very appealing to our CIO. The bottom line for me remains, if MS leaved storage capacity up to me by not having DE I will simply move to another solution, 1 that is as hands off a possible because I do not want to come home from work to do more work or support friends and family doing this work as well. I am not going to claim I sold a bunch of WHS machines to people, I influenced about 8 people to get V1 between gifts and suggestions, I cannot with the same confidence recommend this in V2, even at this point if MS added DE back in, I would be hesitant because the whole things has been such a debacle, I simply have lost confidence in their direction and will just stick with V1 until I get the energy to transfer everything to unraid which at least is what it is.

 

In the end perhaps I can come around and partially agree with the OP - Good Riddance to DE - Goodbye to WHS.

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