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JackoUK

More Windows 10 Service Withdrawals

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JackoUK

I have been trying to parse the latest W10 announcement by Myerson at:

blogs.windows.com/windowsexperience/2016/01/15/windows-10-embracing-silicon-innovation

It reads like another round of Windows Service withdrawals on a par with the Onedrive fiasco ... but clearly Myerson has had much more time to pad it out with corporate BS. After parsing then:

 

- by 'innovation' Myerson means copying Apple and reducing the number of hardware/software variants traditionally handled by Windows for a much leaner alignment (cabal, cartel) of hardware and software, a somewhat expanded version of the old WINTEL arrangement with a few of the usual suspects

 

- M$ will honour the promise of Windows 7 and 8 support on old silicon (defined as pre-SkyLake) over the typical 5 and 10 year cycles

- M$ now insist that new silicon runs Windows 10, so no old OS's running sweetly on new hardware for you chum

 

In reality this does cover the majority of well-organised installations for both consumers and businesses, so no complaints there ... indeed well done for heading in a new, if incompatible direction from time to time.

 

But the support restrictions could cause some problems:

 

- SkyLake devices are classed as new silicon ... but only a select few products from major vendors in the cabal ... which leaves an uncomfortably large number of recently built systems (commercial or bespoke) out in the cold. It would have been nice to know the plan before SkyLake (retrospective announcements seeming the norm for M$ these days, one gets the impression there is a plan but customers are to be slowly sucked into it because it sucks so much)

 

- having been suckered into the 'get Windows 10 - it will be supported for the lifetime of your device' - and upgraded my entire network of old silicon (old silicon please note) ... I am wondering what the future has in store. At what point will I hear "Ah but you are running on old silicon and this mandatory change to W10, which you cannot avoid because updates are automatic, is, er, mandatory. You could always buy new silicon."

 

Of course there is a large degree of baseless push with the whole W10 programme ... and I am a conspiracy theorist.

Edited by JackoUK

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Drashna Jaelre

First, the frequent use "M$" works against you. It shows a CLEAR bias, and casts anything thing negative you say into doubt and uncertainty. Again, it works against you. 

 

 

Secondly, As for "corporate bullshit", I disagree.  Better integration between hardware and software is a good thing.  And the smartphone industry has really proven that (by necessity, more than anything.

The article you've linked even claims "Compared to Windows 7 PC’s, Skylake when combined with Windows 10, enables up to 30x better graphics and 3x the battery life – with the unmatched security of Credential Guard utilizing silicon supported virtualization"

 

If that is something that can be verified, that is huge and massive. But until it's been verified (one way or another, it *is* marketing). 

 

 

Additionally, one of Windows' biggest issues has historically been battery life. 2-3 hours is typical, if not a bit on the optimistic side. By working closer with the fabricators, they can improve utilization and efficiency. Both by better utilizing the hardware, but by also adding better interoperability with the OS. So the improvement is a two way street. 

But the problem is that this really only benefits/requires newer hardware. Period. There isn't a way to backport some of these changes to older hardware, you can can't remap silicon with an update. 

 

 

 

To mean, this all really, REALLY reads like the x64 feature creep of a decade ago. However, there isn't as much of a hard limitation to the old version compared to the new version. 

 

 

 

But the support restrictions could cause some problems:

 

- SkyLake devices are classed as new silicon ... but only a select few products from major vendors in the cabal ... which leaves an uncomfortably large number of recently built systems (commercial or bespoke) out in the cold. It would have been nice to know the plan before SkyLake (retrospective announcements seeming the norm for M$ these days, one gets the impression there is a plan but customers are to be slowly sucked into it because it sucks so much)

 

- having been suckered into the 'get Windows 10 - it will be supported for the lifetime of your device' - and upgraded my entire network of old silicon (old silicon please note) ... I am wondering what the future has in store. At what point will I hear "Ah but you are running on old silicon and this mandatory change to W10, which you cannot avoid because updates are automatic, is, er, mandatory. You could always buy new silicon."

That's .... a lot of twisting words, misconstruing ideas and ... baseless conjecture. 

 

As for major vendors: Intel, AMD, nVidia and Qualcomm.  List in the linked article. I think that's pretty inclusive (well, unless AMD gets bought out, and then they lose the x86 licenses, and Intel will be the only x86 processor manufacturer then). 

 

 

As for the retrospective announcements... if microsoft was a small company, maybe I'd be able to agree here. But they're not. There are a lot of things that need to be done, checked, double checked, forwarded to the legal departments, etc before a lot of their announcements can be made.  And even so, not all of their partners are willing to change their release schedules to fit Microsoft's.  Meaning that Intel has no obligation to delay releasing CPUs just to fit in with Microsoft's announcement timeline. And it doesn't makes sense for them to do so. 

 

 

As for support, the OS itself will be supported until 2020 for mainstream support and 2025 for extended (security) updates.

 

As for those "automatic, er mandatory" updates you bash, have you looked at what they fix/patch/change? Because, you may have noticed that a vast majority of the updates and fixes that are pushed are all security related.  And that is a very important thing.

And considering how hard it's been to get users to install updates for the OS... being more aggressive with security fixes is absolutely beneficial to EVERYONE. Period. End of story. 

 

Of course there is a large degree of baseless push with the whole W10 programme ... and I am a conspiracy theorist.

You call this baseless, but again, I really have to disagree.

By pushing people to upgrade (I mean, there are people still on XP.... and Vista RTM), it means that there are less platforms that have to be supported. Considering the CF that is Internet Explorer....  Also, drivers, where the specific OS makes a massive difference. 

 

 

And no, I don't trust Microsoft. I've been burned by them. But I also don't listen to every bad thing said about them, and I don't go out of my way to twist press releases to fit an anti-MSFT narrative, either. 

 

 

You call it baseless, but that sentiment comes off as paranoid and maybe even naive, to me.  I mean you no offense.

However, I prefer reason and rational thought to tin foil hats. 

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nrf

politics / religion aside, MS wanting to get to 1 billion win10 users seems to be at work here. 

it seems like a real change in behavior to say 'well, we were going to support this OS until 2020 (or whatever) but we changed our minds for new systems.'

bottom line you can't really trust promises from them and many other large companies.

 

fwiw try building a new instance of win7 and see how long it takes you to get it updated (even starting from SP1) and you will say 'good riddance' :)

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JackoUK

Drashna,

 

1. Moi biased?

I plead guilty!

You, being a sound critical thinker will look straight passed the bias to the meat of my argument ;-)

One can of course be both biased and correct ;-) ;-)

 

2. I didn't explain the parts of Myerson's BS which I consider need parsing.

Its not the technical claims - which is all I'm really interested in - its the surrounding decorations. Phrases like

- we are committed to helping our customers embrace ...

- we are prioritizing transparency

- we are particularly excited

- endless repetition of 'excited' 'partners' 'commitment' , ...It makes me sick to read it.

 

3. Conjecture, misconstrued, twisted, ...

I plead guilty again: my interpretation could be all of those ... and completely wrong.

 

4. Baseless? Here I am on solid ground with historical evidence.

a. In one of my earliest posts I criticised Microsoft Corporation for lamentable performance with its last 3 attempts at consumer storage and indicated that if the company didn't get Onedrive right this time they were off my XMAS card list. How did that turn out last November?

b. You said yourself you don't trust them ... and have been burned

 

​So this creep (your word!) in service reduction ... the lockdown of updates, the 'last version of Windows' , the move towards Office 365 subscriptions, the concentration of vendors ... is far from guaranteed to work out well if it doesn't provide the revenue MS want.

But I grant that it could turn out OK, even better ... in fact I said so ...

"... indeed well done for heading in a new incompatible direction from time to time."

 

5. You say big companies can't afford to wait on each other's schedules.

Well actually isn't the entire thrust of Myerson's announcement that all those lovely companies are so enthralled by the need for tight coupling hardware to software that they have got together and sorted things out. Wouldn't it have been so much better to tell customers this in 2015 before SkyLake, rather than mid way through? 

 

6. My bashing of mandatory updates.

You didn't follow me here and it would help if you checked the announcement again to see if I missed something. MS are saying OK to old SW and old HW ... and OK for new HW if it has W10.

But what about my old HW and W10? If at some point the new HW requires a W10 change that is not compatible with old HW - as for example Vista and the mainstream INTEL graphics driver of the day- then what? There is no statement on this point. I am getting very nervous of the unqualified phrase 'for the lifetime of the device'.

 

7. Baseless push

Let me try a more accurate adjective: aggressive.

I agree that it would be in almost everyone's interest to switch entirely to W10.

However the manner it which it is being imposed raises my hackles.

By the way I'm sending someone round to see you next week: they will give you a complete lifestyle check - any area in which you are deficient from best practice must be corrected before the release of KabyLake later this year. Capiche?

 

8. Naïve, moi?

Guilty again.

Before I went on holiday last October I was planning to switch to an all MS system: Office 365, closing down half my home storage servers, building a new SkyLake workstation.

Oh boy was it a good job I had a holiday planned.

 

I think a little scepticism is in order!

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Poppapete

If a build a new machine now and do not use a Skylake CPU is MS saying I will not get the full benefit of W10?

 

Broadwell-E has not been released yet let alone Skylake-E!

 

EDIT:

 

I have since read a bit more and have realized MS means it wants W10 on the new CPU versions and not older OS's.

 

Bit harsh.  I am not a gamer but the ones I know who build high end machines with 3 monster GPU's all seem to load W7.  Not sure why but I bet they have a good reason.

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GotNoTime

They're trying to get rid of all of the legacy junk that has been complicating the PC architecture for years now. That is a good thing IMO. All Microsoft are saying is that they're not supporting the new hardware on old versions of Windows. That is a fairly sound business decision. I don't see any reason for the massive rant except for the usual unwarranted Microsoft hate.

 

Bit harsh.  I am not a gamer but the ones I know who build high end machines with 3 monster GPU's all seem to load W7.  Not sure why but I bet they have a good reason.

It is generally just because W7 was the last one that looked like old Windows. Gaming performance is roughly the same. Eventually they'll have to move onto Windows 10 because DirectX 12 is only available for Windows 10. Not much will actually require it yet so they've got a while still.

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Trig0r

So, in short older versions of OS's wont get support for instruction sets etc in new CPU's, so whats the problem there?

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schoondoggy

It is defined in this document:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

 

Windows 7 ended retail sales October 31, 2013; end of mainstream support was January 13, 2015; end of extended support is January 14, 2020.

I would not recommend using Windows 7 on a new hardware build.

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Drashna Jaelre

It is defined in this document:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/lifecycle

 

Windows 7 ended retail sales October 31, 2013; end of mainstream support was January 13, 2015; end of extended support is January 14, 2020.

I would not recommend using Windows 7 on a new hardware build.

Another point here:

 

Why would *any* company add hardware optimization for OS's that are no longer for sale???

 

It doesn't make sense to offer the same level of optimization for Windows 7, as you can't purchase new copies of it, and it's no longer being pre-loaded on systems.  And considering the push for Windows 10...   

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nrf

right, are there any more downgrade rights to worry about?

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