49 replies to this topic

[tinkererguy]

In this thread, we conclude that probably the biggest drawback to WHS2012E's insistence on being a domain controller is that we cannot backup systems that are already a member of another domain:
http://homeserversho..._120#entry43841

Back in Windows 2008 R2, the procedure called "Removing a Domain Controller from a Domain" was possible (although not necessarily advisable):
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc771844(WS.10).aspx

1) Do we think that such a process will be found, to take the "Domain" out of Windows Server 2012 Essentials, and leave it pure "Workgroup"?
2) If it is possible to go pure Workgroup, will it break features?
3) Would going Workgroup remove all possibility of any support from Microsoft?

Given the client connector install seems to have very tight hooks with the automatic domain joining (for appropriate flavors of Windows 7), it seems likely it would break things, and not be at all supported by Microsoft, but that's just me guessing, would love to hear what others think.

This dialogue is really more out of curiosity really, as a lot can typically be learned about how software works by breaking it.

[tinkererguy]

It appears that many chapters in the migration of older products to WS2012E have yet to be written by Microsoft, seen at:
Migrate Windows SBS 2008 to Windows Server 2012 Essentialse Windows SBS 2008 to Windows Server 2012 Essentials

Will be interesting to see what develops.

[Joe_Miner]

In this thread, we conclude that probably the biggest drawback to WHS2012E's insistence on being a domain controller is that we cannot backup systems that are already a member of another domain:
http://homeserversho..._120#entry43841

Back in Windows 2008 R2, the procedure called "Removing a Domain Controller from a Domain" was possible (although not necessarily advisable):
http://technet.micro...844(WS.10).aspx

1) Do we think that such a process will be found, to take the "Domain" out of Windows Server 2012 Essentials, and leave it pure "Workgroup"?
2) If it is possible to go pure Workgroup, will it break features?
3) Would going Workgroup remove all possibility of any support from Microsoft?

Given the client connector install seems to have very tight hooks with the automatic domain joining (for appropriate flavors of Windows 7), it seems likely it would break things, and not be at all supported by Microsoft, but that's just me guessing, would love to hear what others think.

This dialogue is really more out of curiosity really, as a lot can typically be learned about how software works by breaking it.

The domain hooks seem to be many between the connector and S2012E. Much more breaking/learning to do.

Another question I see on the horizon (maybe everyone else has this figured out and I'm the slow one here) is how we get S2012E and our legacy Servers (2011 & V1) to talk to each other in some sort of peaceful coexistance and more importantly to be able to accomplish the data transfers when we want to transition up to S2012E and later use our old 2011 & V1 boxes as backups to the S2012E box.

[jmwills]

Wouldn't it just be easier to use something like Acronis to backup to one of the server folders? After you spend all this time ($$) trying to break the product, how reliable will it really be, not to mention you are trusting your backups to this process.

[jcollison]

I just picked up Acronis from that Newegg deal last weekend for $15 after much pressure from dvn. Going to try just that if I get some time this weekend. Need to try Paul's hack as well. Nice job guys! keep up the great research!

[tinkererguy]

So far, so good, removal of the Domain went well, and it sure isn't looking very hack-like, which could be good, now with screenshots added:
http://tinkertry.com...domain-removal/

Next up is testing for any side-effects. But if this all works out, then moving data from old WHS2011 to new WS2012E should be as simple as copying folders from old shares to new shares, just like I did when moving from WHSv1 to WHS2011.

[Joe_Miner]

So far, so good, removal of the Domain went well, and it sure isn't looking very hack-like, which could be good, now with screenshots added:
http://tinkertry.com...domain-removal/

Next up is testing for any side-effects. But if this all works out, then moving data from old WHS2011 to new WS2012E should be as simple as copying folders from old shares to new shares, just like I did when moving from WHSv1 to WHS2011.

Exactly what I was wondering -- how to copy all those T's of data over from V1 & 2011 to S2012E!

Great article -- already tagged it to my Favorites in my Reference Folder.

The trick will be if the connector work ..........................

[pcdoc]

I just picked up Acronis from that Newegg deal last weekend for $15 after much pressure from dvn. Going to try just that if I get some time this weekend. Need to try Paul's hack as well. Nice job guys! keep up the great research!

It about time. Have had it running on WHS 2011 for a year now with no issues. That program has save my bacon more than once. Best cloning program on the market (IMO). I run on my primary system and WHS, the rest I do using WHS backup. The main reason is speed of recovery. I may change that in the future if the 2012E proves to be faster but right I can restore in 8-10 minutes to any size drive.

[tinkererguy]

Acronis really shines when cloning to a smaller hard drive, where WHS2011 sometimes refuses to do a restore.

For example
80GB of data on a 128GB SSD
Restore that to a 96GB SSD, WHS2011 may refuse (it's unpredictable), but Acronis will have no issue with it, resizing the partitions automatically.
Works great, and fast, especially for local disk to disk cloning, as pcdoc states.
And much faster than WHS2011 restores.
While WS2012E restores are looking to be a whole lot faster, its resizing (in)abilities haven't changed as far as I can tell.

[no-control]

Paul where exactly are going with this? Is it a "see if I can" experiment? What will happen thing? I'm lost on why you're dumping time and energy into this. I'm all for dinking around a seeing what can be done. But again I've been following your blog (does odd things in chrome BTW) and still haven't seen a point for all this other than breaking it for fun.

So effectively making WS2012e WHS 2011?
Why go through all of this when there is already a products on the market that addresses what it appears you're working towards? I don't see how anyone can justify speding $400 on a software platform only to go in and rip out all of neat useful stuff.

To hopefully further the discussion why is a domain bad? No one has really addressed this. I was hinting at it on Jim's podcast, but no one ran with it. HSS isn't really discussing it either. Whats wrong with WS2012e as is from Microsoft?

[tinkererguy]

Good afternoon, no-control.

My reasons are simple, restating from above:
a ) I want to be able to backup systems that area already joined to another domain (just like I could in WHS2011), so yes, as you state it, effectively making WS2012E into WHS2011 (only much faster)
b ) I learn a lot by "dinking" around, and my most rewarding discoveries are usually those that are the hardest

I always try to be open minded. Could you possibly read this article:
http://tinkertry.com...ows-home-server
and then please do let us know what other software products are similar in the market? I require differential backups done nightly (leaving the systems suspended the rest of the night), and server side storage de-duping, for about 12 machines daily (some over VPN, so network efficiency is key).

I fully realize that you may well be right in the end, that that those of us fooling around with reverting to the Workgroup model were indeed wrong, that's fine. But I still don't see it as a waste of time, even though my latest tests do seem to indicate exactly the sort of breakage I've been warned of, see new warnings up at the top:
http://tinkertry.com...-domain-removal

Finally, I'm very interested in what is rendering wrong on Tinkertry.com with your Chrome browser. I've PM'd you, just in case you're able to let me know what the issue is. Thank you so much!

[no-control]

I PM'd you 2 sceenshots 1 chrome 1 IE9.

I'm not asking you to stop dinking around, I'm all for you breaking it and pushing what it can do. Just trying figure out where you're going with this, and the thought process behind it. I'm obviously not seeing it, what else is new right?

I re-read that article, seems like its dated are you still using WHSv1? Still more questions, if WHS2011 but faster is what your looking for have looked into WHS2011 to see if it could be manipulated? Perhaps faster hardware (drives) might speed up the backup process?

If WS2012e is really doing it for you and the issue is "PC's already in another domain". What are the restrictions on those PCs? How many of the 12 are in the other domain? What is the functional level of the other domain? Who is the enterprise admin of that domain? Thought of adding trust between the domains? Is it possible to move WS2012e into the forest of another domain? Just throwing stuff out there for you to think about from a different point of view.

Edited by no-control, 21 July 2012 - 10:17 PM.

[jmwills]

Good points in deed.

[Drashna (WGS)]

The users will be broken period. I'm sure that the console adds uses to the "Domain Users" group by default, and by demoting the Domain Controller, you remove that group.

Also, if you have existing users when you demote the server, you are *very* likely to use them.

Also, with the AD Cert service, it may break the website too.

With all these issues, and potentially many more, why would you want to do this???? Tinkerer Guy, you mention adding a computer that is already part of a domain, do you already have a domain controller on your network? Or is it for work? If it's at home, why not use WSE/2012 Essentials as the primary domain controller?

[Drashna (WGS)]

Also, a simpler solution to block the domain would be to block the DNS server on the WSE/2012 Essential's firewall.

Also, has anyone tried joining a computer to WSE/2012 Essentials that's already joined to a different domain?

Edited by Drashna (WGS), 21 July 2012 - 06:46 PM.

[Greg Welch]

I just picked up Acronis from that Newegg deal last weekend for $15 after much pressure from dvn. Going to try just that if I get some time this weekend. Need to try Paul's hack as well. Nice job guys! keep up the great research!

not a bad deal, is it still avaliable at that price

Good afternoon, no-control.

My reasons are simple, restating from above:
a ) I want to be able to backup systems that area already joined to another domain (just like I could in WHS2011), so yes, as you state it, effectively making WS2012E into WHS2011 (only much faster)
b ) I learn a lot by "dinking" around, and my most rewarding discoveries are usually those that are the hardest

I always try to be open minded. Could you possibly read this article:
http://tinkertry.com...ows-home-server
and then please do let us know what other software products are similar in the market? I require differential backups done nightly (leaving the systems suspended the rest of the night), and server side storage de-duping, for about 12 machines daily (some over VPN, so network efficiency is key).

I fully realize that you may well be right in the end, that that those of us fooling around with reverting to the Workgroup model were indeed wrong, that's fine. But I still don't see it as a waste of time, even though my latest tests do seem to indicate exactly the sort of breakage I've been warned of, see new warnings up at the top:
http://tinkertry.com...-domain-removal

Finally, I'm very interested in what is rendering wrong on Tinkertry.com with your Chrome browser. I've PM'd you, just in case you're able to let me know what the issue is. Thank you so much!

hate to correct you, but i see the word "dinking" in your article ,shouldnt that be spelled "tinkertry" lol

[ikon]

not a bad deal, is it still avaliable at that price

Don't think so. I think it was a one-day timed event. However, until July 31, you can get 3 copies of True Image Home, plus the Plus Pack, for $80. That's a pretty good price overall.

[Greg Welch]

all i saw was 39.00,

back to paul's article, sorry

[ikon]

click on the option for 3 copies to see the $79.99 price. Under it is the offer for free Plus Pack.

[pcdoc]

The users will be broken period. I'm sure that the console adds uses to the "Domain Users" group by default, and by demoting the Domain Controller, you remove that group.

Also, if you have existing users when you demote the server, you are *very* likely to use them.

Also, with the AD Cert service, it may break the website too.

With all these issues, and potentially many more, why would you want to do this???? Tinkerer Guy, you mention adding a computer that is already part of a domain, do you already have a domain controller on your network? Or is it for work? If it's at home, why not use WSE/2012 Essentials as the primary domain controller?

As I decided to join the experimentation today, I can tell you the dashboard does not use the Domain users and you do loose your users as well as the ability to add users back using the dashboard. In addition, you loose the media streaming. It was worth a shot but it does not appear that will be an option for anyone.