178 replies to this topic

[timekills]

Sorry if I'm not getting this, but are you saying that MKV is what a blu-ray is already compressed in? (so my transcoding a blu-ray rip to mp4 I'm not losing anything?) Currently I believe I've been using h.264 for all my DVD transcodes, which is then inside an MP4 container. Thanks in advance, the transcoding stuff has always been a little confusing for me.

No. Think of MKV as a bucket. A bucket can hold rocks, or water, or sand...etc. MKV is the bucket. Inside the bucket can be video encoded in MPEG2 (i.e. what DVDs use), MPEG1 (what VCDs use [used]), or more typically MPEG4.

Regarding what compression is used in Blu-ray (I'll summarize from an older post I have on this site): The mt2s file in a Blu-ray can be either a variation of the MPEG2 video stream that was made for BluRay (and other systems as well), or MPEG4. Almost always it will be MPEG4.

So basically, .MP4 and .MKV and .AVI (and.DIVX and .MOV) are all the containers (i.e. buckets) that hold an audio stream, a video stream, and depending on the container (bucket) maybe a subtitle stream and additional audio streams as well. The compression used on the audio stream or video stream (i.e. MPEG2 or MPEG4 for video or MP3 or AAC for audio) is the CODEC.

I'll add that some containers are designed and specified to use only one form of video and audio codec (MP4 notably) but some (i.e. MKV) can use basically anything. Which is why it (MKV) is considered more universal. Plus MKVs can have multiple audio streams whereas the MP4 container can have only one, and MKVs can have embedded subtitle streams as well.

If you're curious (or bored) I get into more detail here: http://homeserversho...2127-handbrake/

What about the audio in MP4? I does it still give you the 5.1 audio or just stereo? I know you can get 5.1 in MKV.

MP4 can take AC3 as an audio codec, so it could have 5.1 (or 7.1) sound HOWEVER the official codec and what is typically used is (again stealing from my older post) AAC. AAC is a more advanced encoding formula than MP3 (MPEG1 Layer 3) or MP2, and it also can be used with surround sound but you are correct in that it typically is used in stereo That is only because most uses of MP4 are designed for personal media players (PMPs) that typically have two speakers at best. Also, I don't know of ay players that output AAC surround via digital out. Only via analog. So it's not a great choice.

As above, one of the reasons I prefer MKV is I can include a stereo audio stream as the priamry stream and a surround stream (even the straight TrueHD or DTS) as a secondary stream. if the player only supports stereo, it will default to the first audio. If it is an HTPC conencted to a surround system, I just choose the second audio. I might even throw in a third audio track for director's comments. Can't do that with MP4 container.

For more info: https://trac.handbra...roundSoundGuide

*edit* I'm apparently somewhat mistaken in my claim that the MP4 can't take multiple audio tracks. It just has not been officially supported, and right now only works with Quicktime capable players and as an .m4v (Apple's version of the .MP4 container.) But I still prefer the MKV if yu're going to go down that route.

[eagle63]

@timekills

Wow, thanks for the info - great stuff! Of course I now have more questions. So MP4 is a container type and MPEG-4 is a compression codec...? Confusing. One additional question:

In the other thread you mentioned you prefer MPEG-4 as the codec. Am I fine using H.264 or should I consider switching that too?

Oh, one more question: Is there any advantage to transcoding into WMV? Since we're talking about windows media center, is there some inherent advantage to using a format like that? Thanks again for the help!

Edited by eagle63, 12 December 2011 - 09:47 PM.

[timekills]

@timekills

Wow, thanks for the info - great stuff! Of course I now have more questions. So MP4 is a container type and MPEG-4 is a compression codec...? Confusing.

Yes...and yes.

One additional question:

In the other thread you mentioned you prefer MPEG-4 as the codec. Am I fine using H.264 or should I consider switching that too?

h.264 is a type of MPEG4; arguably the most common and most preferred.

Oh, one more question: Is there any advantage to transcoding into WMV? Since we're talking about windows media center, is there some inherent advantage to using a format like that? Thanks again for the help!

Not in my opinion. Unless you are copying it or using it on something MS that plays only WMV. WMV (you're going to love this) again is a container that uses different codecs depending on the version, but all based on MPEG4. The problem in answering this type of question is the answer is subjective; objectively some encode faster, some take less CPU to decode, but regarding visual quality what looks better to me might not be better to you. I think most would say the MPEG4 derivative used in WMV9 (basically VC-1) is not as good as h.264, especially at lower (2000Kbps and lower) bit rates.

[eagle63]

Yeah but I don't transcode at all. I rip my movies to iso or folders and MM and TMT5 if a bluray play it without transcoding.

And that works great if you are watching it on an HTPC. But if you're using extenders (like me) it needs to be transcoded somehow. Either on the fly or pre-transcoded manually. That's the bummer.

[eagle63]

Not in my opinion. Unless you are copying it or using it on something MS that plays only WMV. WMV (you're going to love this) again is a container that uses different codecs depending on the version, but all based on MPEG4. The problem in answering this type of question is the answer is subjective; objectively some encode faster, some take less CPU to decode, but regarding visual quality what looks better to me might not be better to you. I think most would say the MPEG4 derivative used in WMV9 (basically VC-1) is not as good as h.264, especially at lower (2000Kbps and lower) bit rates.

I've been doing some reading on the Handbrake forums and ran across this interesting bit about the "Constant Quality slider in Handbrake: https://trac.handbra...onstantQuality. If I'm reading that correctly, it sounds like they're saying there's no reason to adjust the slider any lower than 19 because the original DVD material is already compressed to about that level anyway. Another way of saying that (I think) is if you use CQ 19 the quality should be the same as the original DVD source. What I don't get is why the end result (MKV or MP4 file) is much smaller than the original.

As an example, I just ripped a Harry Potter DVD to video_ts structure and if I look at the .VOB files it's a little over 6GB in size. After using Handbrake to transcode that movie using CQ 19 (MKV container, h.264 codec) I end up with a file that's about 1.8GB in size. Obviously it compressed it... but why? I'm just trying to understand what I'm seeing based on their statement about Constant Quality setting.

[ImTheTypeOfGuy]

And that works great if you are watching it on an HTPC. But if you're using extenders (like me) it needs to be transcoded somehow. Either on the fly or pre-transcoded manually. That's the bummer.

I watch most of mine on an XBox.

[eagle63]

I watch most of mine on an XBox.

But that's where MM is doing the auto-transcoding right? I think we just made a full circle. Like I said earlier, the "transcode-on-the-fly" thing that MM doesn't work great for me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge the xbox can't play an .ISO or a video_ts (folder structure) rip. It's pretty picky about the formats/codecs it accepts. Which is why MM has the auto-transcode feature.

Edited by eagle63, 13 December 2011 - 09:44 AM.

[ImTheTypeOfGuy]

But that's where MM is doing the auto-transcoding right? I think we just made a full circle. Like I said earlier, the "transcode-on-the-fly" thing that MM doesn't work great for me.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but to my knowledge the xbox can't play an .ISO or a video_ts (folder structure) rip. It's pretty picky about the formats/codecs it accepts. Which is why MM has the auto-transcode feature.

I don't believe MM is transcoding it. All it does is allow it to recognize the iso format. Kind of like when you install adobe reader on your computer, it now knows what a pdf extension is.

This discussion is meaningless thought given you already have MM and you are having problems.

What hardware do you have MM on and is your network gigabit?

[eagle63]

I don't believe MM is transcoding it. All it does is allow it to recognize the iso format. Kind of like when you install adobe reader on your computer, it now knows what a pdf extension is.

This discussion is meaningless thought given you already have MM and you are having problems.

What hardware do you have MM on and is your network gigabit?

Let me ask you this first, when you're watching a ripped DVD or blu-ray on your xbox (using MM, TMT5) are you getting the full menu's as if you were watching it from your HTPC? (like scene selection, etc) Or does it jump right into the movie? I was reading something about TMT5 being able to mount an .ISO, and I was wondering if maybe that's what's happening in your case, but then things got fuzzy and I couldn't tell if that also worked on an xbox extender or not.

Edited by eagle63, 13 December 2011 - 10:52 AM.

[timekills]

I've been doing some reading on the Handbrake forums and ran across this interesting bit about the "Constant Quality slider in Handbrake: https://trac.handbra...onstantQuality. If I'm reading that correctly, it sounds like they're saying there's no reason to adjust the slider any lower than 19 because the original DVD material is already compressed to about that level anyway. Another way of saying that (I think) is if you use CQ 19 the quality should be the same as the original DVD source. What I don't get is why the end result (MKV or MP4 file) is much smaller than the original.

As an example, I just ripped a Harry Potter DVD to video_ts structure and if I look at the .VOB files it's a little over 6GB in size. After using Handbrake to transcode that movie using CQ 19 (MKV container, h.264 codec) I end up with a file that's about 1.8GB in size. Obviously it compressed it... but why? I'm just trying to understand what I'm seeing based on their statement about Constant Quality setting.

And if you compressed that MKV/MP4 again with CQ19 you'd end up with another file size (possibly larger!) Yes, DVDs are compressed using MPEG2 which - like any MPEG CODEC - is a lossy CODEC. So the generalization is you're wasting file size by using a better quality (which mean s a not intuitively lower CQ setting...) than CQ19. I'm not going to debate that; again it is largely subjective. But that is as good a rule of thumb as any, that CQ19 has the same Quantizer (P frame retention) as a DVD does using MPEG2. It does not measure "quality" per se (for that you want CRF or constant ratefactor) but it is okay to think of it that way.

Bottom line: remember that MPEG2 is not as efficient at compression as MPEG4. So even keeping the same quantization (P-frames), MPEG4 will produce a smaller file size than MPEG2. Also remember that every time you use an MPEG codec, you irretrievably lose some data which also leads to (normally) a smaller file size so even though visually (i.e. subjectively) the CQ19 MPEG4 video is the same as the MPEG2 DVD, in reality you've lost data.

Having fun yet?

[ikon]

Do they do this stuff deliberately to give us headaches?

[eagle63]

So I've been experimenting a bit with .MKV. I've taken some existing DVD rips (which are in video_ts folder structure) and used Handbrake to transcode them to MKV. (using h.264 codec)

Are MKV files supposed to be able to play "natively" on Win7? I assumed yes, but I can't get an MKV file to play either on my HTPC or on an extender. Do I have to install codecs or something? (I thought codec packs were discouraged...)

[krom]

You do need to install something to play them, either a codec pack which is generally discouraged due to their propensity to mess up other parts of your PC or something like the Haali splitter which just takes care of the MKV playback. I myself have used the Haali without problems.

http://haali.su/mkv/

[eagle63]

Thanks Krom. I'm really hoping to not have to install anything additional just to get stuff to playback, but I suppose that's an option. Let me ask the experts this:

If I'm trying to pick an appropriate video encoding format for my movies, and I have the following 4 requirements, what is the right/best choice?:

1. Needs to be playable on both WMC as well as xbox extenders. (ideally with no add'l codecs installed)
2. High quality. Hoping to keep the quality as close to the original DVD as possible.
3. Needs to support 5.1 surround sound.
4. Needs to allow rewind and fast-forward.

I've been doing some research and it sounds like either dvr-ms or wtv formats might be the only thing that could do all that stuff. I realize those are MS proprietary formats, but at this point I'm willing to live with that if it will meet all my requirements. Please anyone chime in if they have an opinion. Thnx!!

Edited by eagle63, 17 December 2011 - 10:58 PM.

[ikon]

I'm really puzzled at your aversion to installing a codec. Microsoft went to a lot of trouble to make it possible to install 3rd party codecs; why not take advantage of it.

[eagle63]

I'm really puzzled at your aversion to installing a codec. Microsoft went to a lot of trouble to make it possible to install 3rd party codecs; why not take advantage of it.

Man, maybe it's just me but everything I read about transcoding with respect to WMC has lots of vocal people strongly recommending NOT to install codecs. Ceton themselves has discouraged it apparently. (and I use their InfiniTV tuner) I'm sure some people are using codec packs with no issue, but where there's smoke there's usually fire and I'm pretty leery to muck with my (otherwise working) system like that.

[ImTheTypeOfGuy]

Let me ask you this first, when you're watching a ripped DVD or blu-ray on your xbox (using MM, TMT5) are you getting the full menu's as if you were watching it from your HTPC? (like scene selection, etc) Or does it jump right into the movie? I was reading something about TMT5 being able to mount an .ISO, and I was wondering if maybe that's what's happening in your case, but then things got fuzzy and I couldn't tell if that also worked on an xbox extender or not.

I will have to check when I return home in a couple weeks.

Man, maybe it's just me but everything I read about transcoding with respect to WMC has lots of vocal people strongly recommending NOT to install codecs. Ceton themselves has discouraged it apparently. (and I use their InfiniTV tuner) I'm sure some people are using codec packs with no issue, but where there's smoke there's usually fire and I'm pretty leery to muck with my (otherwise working) system like that.

I agree with you. Codecs=trouble.

[ikon]

I agree with you. Codecs=trouble.

I must be the luckiest guy around. I've installed codec packs on many machines and, so far as I can see, they have only helped me play files I otherwise couldn't. Just a few days ago I had to install a codec to play some oddly encoded files on my HTPC when WMC said it couldn't play them.

[Kaen]

For DVD's and BD's I use Pavtube's Blue-Ray Ripper. I've been using it for awhile now and it makes things very easy. It's has presets for about any somewhat mainstream device you can think of and also allows you to create custom settings and name them. Allows me to pick exactly what I want to rip and no more or less. I just rip the main movie file with no menus or ads and I use the merge files option to create the single file.

I rip everything I have to .WMV with settings that allow me to use the same file for the PC, Zune, Xbox(MCE or not) and Android(Playon App) Phone. I use two different setups, one for BD's and one for DVD's with the only difference being the resolution. It rips a single .WMV file for me that I manage with MyMovies. Easy and works great. Well worth the $40 I spent over a year ago.

Edited by Kaen, 06 January 2012 - 11:15 AM.

[ImTheTypeOfGuy]

For DVD's and BD's I use Pavtube's Blue-Ray Ripper. I've been using it for awhile now and it makes things very easy. It's has presets for about any somewhat mainstream device you can think of and also allows you to create custom settings and name them. Allows me to pick exactly what I want to rip and no more or less. I just rip the main movie file with no menus or ads and I use the merge files option to create the single file.

I rip everything I have to .WMV with settings that allow me to use the same file for the PC, Zune, Xbox(MCE or not) and Android(Playon App) Phone. I use two different setups, one for BD's and one for DVD's with the only difference being the resolution. It rips a single .WMV file for me that I manage with MyMovies. Easy and works great. Well worth the $40 I spent over a year ago.

Looks like a good product, thanks for posting.

Do you know if you can rip a Blu-ray to an iso but without the ads and other junk? I want to be able to keep my rips in iso but I want to be able to remove the ads and other junk first.